Curse

The Great Al · Jul 31, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

For most professions, the Primary attribute is very effective in itself.

Divine Favor - is extremely useful even if you don't bring any divine favor spells.

Fast Casting - rarely see a Mesmer with a fast casting spell.

Expertise, Soul Reaping, etc...I haven't played Ranger or Necro much, but you can pretty much set those attribute points, and then you can forget about it - Divine favor heals plenty, Fast Casting makes you cast faster, Expertise reduces energy cost, Soul Reaping gives you energy, etc.

Judging by this, Energy storage should also be a 'set it and forget it' type attribute, in the sense that if you wanted to further enhance it by adding skills you can, but it is not necessary. However, that is not the case. Ever see an elementalist without an energy management skill? Yet, there can be mesmers that don't rely on fast casting spells, or monks that don't rely on divine favor spells!

Because the energy costs of the elementalist spells are so high, Energy Storage does not really give Elementalists much of an advantage, at all, unless they are using non-elementalist spells. Basically, all it does is keep the average energy cost / total energy ratio comperable to other classes. To make a usable elementalist, however, you need much more than just the inherent primary effect, you NEED the skills that go along with it. This is not only a waste of 1 or 2 slots on the already precious skillbar, but basically proof that, because of the outrageous energy costs of elementalist spells, energy storage inherent effect does not have nearly the effect that it should, and is basically only good enough in itself when you are just bringing spells from a different profession.

LordLucifer · Jul 31, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

hmmm when i looked at your post name i was rdy to disagree..but now...idk, you really got a point, maybe energy storage should have like 3 breakpoints that add +energy regen? (like the ones for crit strikes adding+1/+2/+3 energy/crit)

idk, im pretty comfortable with my ele but you do have a point i guess @_@

ellandra · Jul 31, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

The inherent effect of energy storage is that your energy is hightened with every rank of it... something like 1 rank is another 3 energy. So in some ways it is a set and forget type thing, the attunement skills are there to better help with energy management but look at mesmers, they also have skills for energy management...only their skills have to steal it from enemies. Eles get it while casting.

Don't get me wrong, i have an ele and running out of energy mid battle is totally frustrating but I'm really not sure what improvements you could make. Eles are highly powered and if they had some better form of energy there'd be nothing to stop them constantly spamming high energy skills and just destroying things...this would make them kind of over powered and would lead to nerfing of skills probably... is that really what you want?

LightningHell · Jul 31, 2006, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

hmmm when i looked at your post name i was rdy to disagree..but now...idk, you really got a point, maybe energy storage should have like 3 breakpoints that add +energy regen? (like the ones for crit strikes adding+1/+2/+3 energy/crit)

idk, im pretty comfortable with my ele but you do have a point i guess @_@

If you had energy regen, they would be used to cast Heal Party instead of Elementalist Spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellandra

The inherent effect of energy storage is that your energy is hightened with every rank of it... something like 1 rank is another 3 energy. So in some ways it is a set and forget type thing, the attunement skills are there to better help with energy management but look at mesmers, they also have skills for energy management...only their skills have to steal it from enemies. Eles get it while casting.

Ether Prodigy.

I mean, sheesh. That's the only reason why we use primary Ellys nowadays in GvGs/etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellandra

Don't get me wrong, i have an ele and running out of energy mid battle is totally frustrating but I'm really not sure what improvements you could make. Eles are highly powered and if they had some better form of energy there'd be nothing to stop them constantly spamming high energy skills and just destroying things...this would make them kind of over powered and would lead to nerfing of skills probably... is that really what you want?

Perhaps he's talking about lowering Ether Prodigy a little bit, and make most of the Elementalist (damage, I'm presuming, since many of the support spells are quite good, already) spells actually usable.

The problem isn't in EStorage itself. The skill(s, but I don't really count Aura of Restoration or Ether Renewal unless while farming) that goes along with it are perfectly fine, but Elementalist skills in general are bad enough so that if you had better energy management for the elly, it would still be used to power non-Elly spells. Anyone can say Heal Party?

LordLucifer · Jul 31, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

yah i just meant guy got a point, all inherent attribute effects seems to help a class EVEN using stuff not from them (heal party any1? lol)

while energy storage pretty much just lets you use your own skills (what other class can spam those monstruous energy costs? 25 energy a strike?!)
i know there are stuff like atunement but... i dont see rangers using an enchant to make expertise kick in.. or assassins using stuff for their energy bonus, or necros (actually most necros dont even use a SR skill)

Pick Me · Jul 31, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Sorry Great Al, I must disagree with you.

By your statement, a player how has a primary attribute should gain benefits from it without needing to use skills from that primary attribute.

Soul Reaping - gains energy whenever something dies (up until Factions has no skills)
Expertise - reduces energy cost of all things that are not spells (basically)
Strength - adds armor penetration to attacks (not spells)
Energy Storage - increases max energy pool
Divine Favor - adds healing to any monk spell cast on ally
Fast Casting - adds speed to casting spells
Spawning - adds health to spirits and summoned minions
Critical Strike - increases chance to critical hits per attack (not spells)

You can increase your attributes to Energy Storage and forget it. Do you really need Aura of Restoration? Ether Prodigy? Ether Renewal or Energy Boon? For most elementalists, the answer is yes. Especially if you are in PvP. Personally I like Glyph of Energy, but regardless, you can use the increased energy pool for anything.

Warriors need Strength to do more damage with a weapon. Rangers need to lower energy costs when not casting spells (from secondary profession), Smiting Monks don't really gain much benefit from Divine Favor (but they do gain some). Ritualists that do not have any skills in Spawning and don't use spirits/minions, where is their benefit?

The point I'm trying to make is, while every profession can gain benefit from their primary attribute, it still is not absolutely necessary for them to use skills that are linked to that attribute.

I know you and may others say, yes, Elementalists need one of the Elites that are linked to Energy Storage, but then so does the Assassin. They need more skills on their skill bar than the Elementalist does. From what I've read, you all believe that there is no doubt that the Elementalist should not have to rely on the skills in the Energy Storage attribute. Perhaps they should be changed, set to the no attribute list. Does it change anything? You need those skills, so why is it that bad? You need energy storage to be able to cast those high energy cost spells (balance by ANet). You like the benefits from Ether Renewal or Prodigy, etc. So is it that bad that the spells you need are linked to the attribute you need as well?

Rangers need defenses and the reduction of energy costs, Warriors use "IWAY", "IWS", Dolyak Signet, Flourish, Endure Pain, Sprint, which are linked to Strength, Assassins need skills from Critical Strike, etc.

Admittingly, most Monks, Mesmers, and Necromancers do not need skills from their primary attribute to be effective. But some Warriors, Rangers, Ritualists, and basically all Assassins, are in the same boat as Elementalists.

This is why I must disagree with you Great Al.

But I do understand your points of view.

H2BH · Jul 31, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I belive its more a problem with the fact that even with 16 energy storage, and +energy from equipment elementalist effective life expectancy is only 5-8 spells, and as there is no other real way for us to deal damage other than wanding, and having low al and very indirect and limiting ways to regain energy...e-stoarge seems lacking

E-Stoargae is the only primary att that directly effects you stats as its primary way of working, adding a +1 to regen at 12 skill would go a long way to fixing it.

Pick Me · Jul 31, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2BH

I belive its more a problem with the fact that even with 16 energy storage, and +energy from equipment elementalist effective life expectancy is only 5-8 spells, and as there is no other real way for us to deal damage other than wanding, and having low al and very indirect and limiting ways to regain energy...e-stoarge seems lacking

Just to claims Devil's advocate

for a bit, Monks have the same problem. They too have 5-8 spells that costs energy and have basically 0 ways to regain energy other than sitting down and taking a small nap. They may not have the high cost of 25 energy per spell that Elementalists have, but they do have faster casting times, shorter recharge times and low energy (no way of increasing their energy max except by armor and items).

Glyphs are there so people can use them without worrying about needing an attribute to put points into. So you have Glyph of Lesser Energy, reduces energy by 15 (but its really 10, since Glyph costs 5).

Although I find it funny, that Elementalists complain that the Energy Storage is not good enough, because of the lack of energy gained by attribute or spell used compaired to the energy cost of spells. While Mesmers complain that they cannot get an Elementalist's energy low enough for E-denials.

I use Glyph of Energy then a big 25 energy that has Exhaustion. I love doing that. Its energy efficient and practicle.

Sientir · Jul 31, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

I see the point that Al is trying to get across. The problem is 2 fold: Higher cost on spells because you have more energy means that it takes longer to regen that energy. Because Elementalist spells are balanced for their high energy levels, they could arguably be said to have a LOWER energy regen rate than other classes (because they need more energy) when using spells from within itself. The other problem I have with ele's is that, at the later stages of the game especially, the elite slot is almost REQUIRED to be given to some form of e-management. In my opinion, that is rediculous. And on top of that, a lot of the spells having exaustion for some unknown reasons. Some I can understand, but there are those that I just don't get why they have that tag...

Anyway, I agree with the basic point that elementalist spells are a bit costly, and thus reduce the effectiveness of energy storage.

H2BH · Jul 31, 2006, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Monks and also E/Mo's have much better options for emanagent due to Essence bond and Blath's aura, this works for the monk cause they can tolerate sustainded damage, where as an Emo has no chance of using those spell to manage energy in pvp in any serious way.

If you go to sanctum Kay as an ele and solo there with the +1 regen from the orts staff, youll notice how much a difference +1 eregen can make when it comes to sustained casting, but youll also notice that for the most part once your OOE you're still going to have serious issues make the current elites useful and needed for the most part in pvp

H2BH · Jul 31, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

hence why i simply suggest giving us +1 regen at 12 spec

its keep the current balance and allows those of us who either A want to spam more damage or B spam more heals to do that, without giving us to much of an added ability to do so, but it keeps us from being able to do both at once due to limitations of avaible attribute points

As an ele you really only get 1 shot to really do some damage, once your initial energy pool is gone, your really left with onyl using 5-10 mana cost spells, with the ocasional 15 here and there, unless you use an elite skill which helps with using some that may cost 25, it takes a LONG time to regen 25 energy in the middle of an 8v8, ele's have no way to do any real damage other than this, so how are they going to be of any real use in a sustained fight since basicly i have to kite until i get up to 50e so i can generate enough damage to kill someone. with ranaged damage and degens its hard to not cast a spell for the 35 seocnds it would take to regain enough energy to pull off a decent nuke chain on someone.

especialy when you have a class like the dervish who really, proly has better energy recovery and management that any other class b/c not only do they gain energy constantly, they gain it from spells that expire after helping them....

Symbol · Jul 31, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Of all the posters in this thread, only H2BH has the right idea.

Say it with me: Energy storage is not energy management!

Energy storage doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify the elementalist's overpriced spells. In terms of effect, it's probably the worst primary attribute in the game (tied with strength).

However unlike strength, e-storage has one must have skill (prodigy) which is why people end up speccing it anyway. I'll leave at as an exercise to the reader to figure out why this is broken.

H2BH · Jul 31, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

That's asking an AWFUL lot there symbol

Luckily for them im bored as hell at work.

If anyone here ever played DAoC they may be familar with "front loaded" damage, basicly it's a way to effect your overall DPS, its just like if you had a weapon that did 100 damage a hit and swung once ever 10 seocnds versus a weapon that did 33 damage a hit and hits every 3 seconds, they equal the same DPS over all but when you take this into a real time situation and factor in missing etc the 33 damage every 3 seconds will normaly out do the 100 damage every 10. So what people did was equip that 100 damage weapon and hit first them switch to the faster one IE front loading your damage and drasticly increasing your DPS.

Now lets use our brains here....how does this pertain to e-stoarge and spells?

Well its a DPS thing again, lets take a mana pool of 100 for simplicities sake.

now you have 4 spells one that costs 25 one that costs 15, 10, 5 etc. These are just like a weapons damage, and the time it takes to recharge your energy is just like a swing time.

So at first you have 100 mana and can cast a bunch of heavy front loaded damage until you expend all your energy....after that tho...you have to wait a long time to essential "swing again" meaning that the cheaper spells will over take the higher damage ones over a long enough period in time.

So in guild wars which battles can last a really long time, essential the longer the fight goes on the more of a disadvantage the ele has due to the higer cost of most of thier powerful spells that would equal another classes higher cost skills that only cost 15 mana at most.

So basicly lets say you increase your mana pool -- you essentialy just increase the initial effectiveness of you char, which in guild wars is ALSO limited by your casting recharge times, which further add onto your "swing time"

By making the primary way eles gain mana also tied to the way we essential ''front load" damage you're forcing the ele into a situation where having more mana is the only way to gain faster attacks and essentialy increase thier DPS.
IE Reverse front loading after the intial spike.....

Basicly what im asking for is a blanket increase in our "attack speed" to assit with the fact that we basicly are a front loader class unless of course you use ice spear like me

Phades · Jul 31, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2BH

If anyone here ever played DAoC they may be familar with "front loaded" damage, basicly it's a way to effect your overall DPS, its just like if you had a weapon that did 100 damage a hit and swung once ever 10 seocnds versus a weapon that did 33 damage a hit and hits every 3 seconds, they equal the same DPS over all but when you take this into a real time situation and factor in missing etc the 33 damage every 3 seconds will normaly out do the 100 damage every 10.

The only time that matters is TTK versus DOT. Barring protection spells and skills, short TTK equals a spike and its usually irrellevant how long it takes for the front loaded damage to be delivered. However, should the spike fail for any reason, the damage calculation automatically falls to DOT being king. The only game i can really think of that front loaded damage is the most pronounced in being game altering would be eve online, with battleship vollies defeating any kind of tank instantly making defense and DOT weaponry mostly pointless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2BH

Well its a DPS thing again, lets take a mana pool of 100 for simplicities sake.

now you have 4 spells one that costs 25 one that costs 15, 10, 5 etc. These are just like a weapons damage, and the time it takes to recharge your energy is just like a swing time.

This situation matters more to damage over time, not damage up front. Also, you did not go into casting times, after cast times, time till effect lands, how area effect actually is applied, and reactionary damage mitigation like dodging into your comparison to weapon based damage. In some skill sets, its easy to tap out the energy pool with moderate to high cost skills, while in others you can easily be locked out by recast time, yet others will force breaks in casting due to exhaustion limitations. Considering a warrior can cover half the aggro circle with sprint in the time it takes to cast a 3s spell, its easy to find problems in just application of many of the skills, never mind the actual cost to sustain the casting.

So in guild wars which battles can last a really long time, essential the longer the fight goes on the more of a disadvantage the ele has due to the higer cost of most of thier powerful spells that would equal another classes higher cost skills that only cost 15 mana at most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2BH

Basicly what im asking for is a blanket increase in our "attack speed" to assit with the fact that we basicly are a front loader class unless of course you use ice spear like me

All the ele spamables are utter trash unfortunatly. However, for the sake of comparison, a ele with ether prodigy is roughly equal to a ranger with 14 in expertise and no zealous weapon. This is ignoring the drawbacks associated with ether prodigy. The difference is that there is a large time difference between regening 1e for what would normally be a 5e skill or 3e for what would normally be a 10e skill and so on compared to the fixed 3.33e per second the elementalist has under ether prodigy. Yet the ele is still not alone when it comes to being capable of spamming monk skills, necromancers and the dervish have options to do similar. The only difference is that ether prodigy lets the user go from point a->b while recovering energy.

Ira Blinks · Aug 01, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

i also think that buffing e-storage will only result in even more spamming secondary profession spells... Eles need a good pack of skills to spend that energy on.

The Great Al · Aug 01, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Of all the posters in this thread, only H2BH has the right idea.

Say it with me: Energy storage is not energy management!

Energy storage doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify the elementalist's overpriced spells. In terms of effect, it's probably the worst primary attribute in the game (tied with strength).

However unlike strength, e-storage has one must have skill (prodigy) which is why people end up speccing it anyway. I'll leave at as an exercise to the reader to figure out why this is broken.

Well, I guess that the reason that it is the worst primary attribute is because the energy costs of the spells do not justify their damage. Elementalists should be doing high damage. High damage = high energy cost. High energy cost means that they must have a larger energy pool, and ways to conserve energy. However, the problem lies in the fact that the damage and effectiveness of elementalist spells does not justify the high energy cost.

H2BH · Aug 01, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

AL Dude that was half my point DOT is king and eles are built more like a DAoC char and are broken due to it

so pretty much we agree on the problem i wasnt saying front loading was some serious flaw, its just smart but its only effective in a world of add or subtract direct damage, where as in guild wars dot are mostly supeirior

runeseeker1 · Aug 01, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Of all the posters in this thread, only H2BH has the right idea.

Say it with me: Energy storage is not energy management!

Energy storage doesn't in any way, shape, or form justify the elementalist's overpriced spells. In terms of effect, it's probably the worst primary attribute in the game (tied with strength).

he's right ya kno (please don't be a she!)

lol u people forgot about Aura of Restoration. Maybe that's why the ele has huge energy costs, perhaps? I had over 300% healing at lvl 16!

And besides,you dont have to use ele skills. just use the secondary skills and u get really nice low costs skills with a huge energy pool!

squan · Aug 01, 2006, 06:53 AM // 06:53

nice topic

my oppinion, keep everything as it is. ele's need lots of energy and the Primary attribute of an ele is effective. Its just what a ele needs. could you imagine much problems you should have if you had a max of 40 energy. cans 1 meteor shower and you are almost out of energy.

LordLucifer · Aug 01, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

read posts above, thats exactly the problem, they do have a larger energy pool, thats great! but...they are the only class with huge energy costs, that nulifies their bonus...(not to mention the dmg or effect/energy on the ele class is the worst in this game)

(also check http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...y+Nuking+Sucks)